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cheer for the home team
| Message Board > General Chitchat > cheer for the home team |
| war | It Was An Outrage, An Obscenity By Robert Fisk The Independent - UK 3-27-3 It was an outrage, an obscenity. The severed hand on the metal door, the swamp of blood and mud across the road, the human brains inside a garage, the incinerated, skeletal remains of an Iraqi mother and her three small children in their still-smouldering car. Two missiles from an American jet killed them all - by my estimate, more than 20 Iraqi civilians, torn to pieces before they could be 'liberated' by the nation that destroyed their lives. Who dares, I ask myself, to call this 'collateral damage'? Abu Taleb Street was packed with pedestrians and motorists when the American pilot approached through the dense sandstorm that covered northern Baghdad in a cloak of red and yellow dust and rain yesterday morning. It's a dirt-poor neighbourhood, of mostly Shia Muslims, the same people whom Messrs Bush and Blair still fondly hope will rise up against President Saddam Hussein, a place of oil-sodden car-repair shops, overcrowded apartments and cheap caf�s. Everyone I spoke to heard the plane. One man, so shocked by the headless corpses he had just seen, could say only two words. "Roar, flash," he kept saying and then closed his eyes so tight that the muscles rippled between them. How should one record so terrible an event? Perhaps a medical report would be more appropriate. But the final death toll is expected to be near to 30 and Iraqis are now witnessing these awful things each day; so there is no reason why the truth, all the truth, of what they see should not be told. For another question occurred to me as I walked through this place of massacre yesterday. If this is what we are seeing in Baghdad, what is happening in Basra and Nasiriyah and Kerbala? How many civilians are dying there too, anonymously, indeed unrecorded, because there are no reporters to be witness to their suffering? Abu Hassan and Malek Hammoud were preparing lunch for customers at the Nasser restaurant on the north side of Abu Taleb Street. The missile that killed them landed next to the westbound carriageway, its blast tearing away the front of the caf� and cutting the two men - the first 48, the second only 18 - to pieces. A fellow worker led me through the rubble. "This is all that is left of them now," he said, holding out before me an oven pan dripping with blood. At least 15 cars burst into flames, burning many of their occupants to death. Several men tore desperately at the doors of another flame-shrouded car in the centre of the street that had been flipped upside down by the same missile. They were forced to watch helplessly as the woman and her three children inside were cremated alive in front of them. The second missile hit neatly on the eastbound carriageway, sending shards of metal into three men standing outside a concrete apartment block with the words, "This is God's possession" written in marble on the outside wall. The building's manager, Hishem Danoon, ran to the doorway as soon as he heard the massive explosion. "I found Ta'ar in pieces over there," he told me. His head was blown off. "That's his hand." A group of young men and a woman took me into the street and there, a scene from any horror film, was Ta'ar's hand, cut off at the wrist, his four fingers and thumb grasping a piece of iron roofing. His young colleague, Sermed, died the same instant. His brains lay piled a few feet away, a pale red and grey mess behind a burnt car. Both men worked for Danoon. So did a doorman who was also killed. As each survivor talked, the dead regained their identities. There was the electrical shop-owner killed behind his counter by the same missile that cut down Ta'ar and Sermed and the doorman, and the young girl standing on the central reservation, trying to cross the road, and the truck driver who was only feet from the point of impact and the beggar who regularly called to see Mr Danoon for bread and who was just leaving when the missiles came screaming through the sandstorm to destroy him. In Qatar, the Anglo-American forces - let's forget this nonsense about "coalition" - announced an inquiry. The Iraqi government, who are the only ones to benefit from the propaganda value of such a bloodbath, naturally denounced the slaughter, which they initially put at 14 dead. So what was the real target? Some Iraqis said there was a military encampment less than a mile from the street, though I couldn't find it. Others talked about a local fire brigade headquarters, but the fire brigade can hardly be described as a military target. Certainly, there had been an attack less than an hour earlier on a military camp further north. I was driving past the base when two rockets exploded and I saw Iraqi soldiers running for their lives out of the gates and along the side of the highway. Then I heard two more explosions; these were the missiles that hit Abu Taleb Street. Of course, the pilot who killed the innocent yesterday could not see his victims. Pilots fire through computer-aligned co-ordinates, and the sandstorm would have hidden the street from his vision. But when one of Malek Hammoud's friends asked me how the Americans could so blithely kill those they claimed to want to liberate, he didn't want to learn about the science of avionics or weapons delivery systems. And why should he? For this is happening almost every day in Baghdad. Three days ago, an entire family of nine was wiped out in their home near the centre of the city. A busload of civilian passengers were reportedly killed on a road south of Baghdad two days ago. Only yesterday were Iraqis learning the identity of five civilian passengers slaughtered on a Syrian bus that was attacked by American aircraft close to the Iraqi border at the weekend. The truth is that nowhere is safe in Baghdad, and as the Americans and British close their siege in the next few days or hours, that simple message will become ever more real and ever more bloody. We may put on the hairshirt of morality in explaining why these people should die. They died because of 11 September, we may say, because of President Saddam's "weapons of mass destruction", because of human rights abuses, because of our desperate desire to "liberate" them all. Let us not confuse the issue with oil. Either way, I'll bet we are told President Saddam is ultimately responsible for their deaths. We shan't mention the pilot, of course. http://www.independent.co.uk/ - Thu, 27 Mar 2003 11:47am | ||
| Jedi | Thats nothing compared to the American life loss coming soon. I was listening to track #9 from piece of mind (iron maiden) Bush will lose, this the the beginning of the last war. We will all die. The sand people will rise and destroy us all. In the number of the beast CD, they say to Run for the Hills. These prophesy's are now!!! - Thu, 27 Mar 2003 8:00pm | ||
| Jedi | Hail Steve Harris!!! He has seen the future. He is one of the Jedi masters. - Thu, 27 Mar 2003 8:03pm | ||
| Anonymous | Gotta love LiveVic! - Thu, 27 Mar 2003 9:02pm | ||
| The Provider User Info... | Hey before you pass something you read on the internet as fact, lokk into other sources. This was probably some slapped together article. I am not saying the americans are innocent, because I was not there but neither where you. The missles landed in a densely populated area and considering the damage from two missles, they were probably not sent to do damage. These would be the smallest two missles shot off in the entire war by the coalition forces. The location is now where near any strategic targets, and with anti-american sentiment in Iraq, the last thing they want to do is get the people more upset with them. (insert your own bullshit theory in here, but I'll go with the popular opinion bullshit) The missles were most likely a couple of the thousands of small anti-aircraft missles that are shot by Iraqi forces trying to hit the planes during their sorties. you can see these little missles shooting into the air 24 hours a day live on CNN (Comedy News Network). What are the chances that you shoot even a hundred missles over a densely populated area and none of them ever hit the ground? The missles go up, the don't hit their target, they come down. Of course there will be someone who will come up with some retarded "the americans shot anti-aircraft missles so the people would get mad at Iraq" bullshit, but yeah. Just because innocent people died and we all hate americans doesn't always make them guilty. Notice the authors intelligent, but predictable opening. After reading that first paragraph he could have said your mother dropped those bombs and you would have passed judgement. I am not pro-american, but it seems like since pretty much nobody is pro-american (except that aussie dentist dude) that everyone just wnats to blame them for everything that goes wrong in the world. No doubt they are a leading cause though. - Thu, 27 Mar 2003 11:49pm | ||
| Trailer Park Boy Julian | The fact of the matter is, no matter how 'objectively' and disspationately we try to talk about this, this article paints a picture of REALITY. As in, this is what REALLY happens in wars. That, I think, is ultimately the message the writer is trying to convey. That is why war should ALWAYS be a last resort. I think the question to then ask is: could this war have been prevented? All the rest of the talk of who did what is SHIT! The bottom line is, that mother and three children would most likely still be alive if there wasn't a war goin' on in THEIR country. As Charles Bukowski once said, "the problem with you people (North Americans) is that your cities have never been bombed and your mothers have never been told to shut up....". - Fri, 28 Mar 2003 3:29am | ||
| A WOMAN WHO KNOWS | women and children and dying all the time in the states. Los Angeles, New York, Chicago. How am I supposed to give a big shit when it's worse here in North America. I dont know the number of males that die every year in gang wars. It's a whole lot more over the past 10 years than this little war is going to do. - Fri, 28 Mar 2003 11:00am | ||
| war | Provider, I posted an article by a British newspaper, I didn't try to pass it off as fact, I just posted it. You seem pretty sensitive about this, but, after telling me not to pass it off as fact--I repeat I just posted it, you decide for yourself what the facts are--you go on to wildly speculate that Iraq is responsible without even having anything--made up or otherwise--to support your claims. I repeat this is a British reporter on the ground in Bagdad, as opposed to you--what ever kind of armchair general you are here in Victoria. I suggest you check your "other sources" for a definition of hypocrisy. - Fri, 28 Mar 2003 12:34pm | ||
| Shaggy User Info... | Fact: The US backed Iraq during their police action on Iran. Supplied the Iraqi's with the technology that ended up killing tens of thousands of Kurds (helicopters that were intended for agricultural use, were converted to gunships which launched numerous chemical weapons attacks against the Kurds). The US continued to back the Iraq government up until the Iraqi's decided to invade Kuwait. At this point the US was concerned with their interests in the kuwait oil fields, decided to assist Kuwait in the 1st Gulf Police action. The US caused this, the US can now reap what they've sown. To the innocents that have died over something as assinine as oil reserves, I mourn your losses and those of your families. - Fri, 28 Mar 2003 12:50pm | ||
| Spark | just so we're clear here, it's governments that create wars. It's soldiers that fly those planes.... I think it's time we hold our governments accountable, too much happens behind the backs of north americans, and it seems as though we cannot do anything to the persons responsible, other than bitch and forget about it, that is. - Fri, 28 Mar 2003 1:12pm | ||
| Dr.LOAD | In case you hadn't heard yet, Halliburton, the oil services company Dick Cheney headed until becoming a candidate for Vice President, has just been handed a multi-million dallar contract by the U.S. government to re-build the oil infrastructure of Iraq once the war is over. Can we say conflict of intrest? If the U.S.A. was really concerned with freeing nations under "Evil Rule" why don't we see them planning to move into South Africa or China or any of the other third world nations of the world, people are exicuted in Africa on a daily basis and the President hasn't said a word about that yet. As for weapons of mass distruction, the U.S. has proven that they don't give a rat's ass about the rest of the world and there's a slim chance that those weapons would ever make their way over to North America. The whole W.O.M.D. idea was only put forward as an excuse to invade and to scare the Public into backing the war. That's just my opinion anyway. - Fri, 28 Mar 2003 2:49pm | ||
| The Provider User Info... | Whoa buddy read before you bark. I quit clearly stated that I was not there and that it was my opinion, but if anyone has been watching the news, a missle of the exact same size just hit downtown in a city in Kuwait. It happened about 15 minutes ago. This morning Iraqi soldiers opened fire on thousands of refugees trying to flee Basara. More civilians have been killed by Iraqi soldiers in the last 8 hours then the entire communitive death toll so far in this war. If a leader would rather execute his own people then let them escape a city before it comes under fire, then I am now 100% in favor with this war. No one deserves to do to his people what Saddam did today. Whatever the americans plans are for Iraq, I hope they succeed. Oh, and back to my original point, they are now saying it was because Kuwait supports the coalition that Iraqis are now firing missles at them. It was Iraqi missles fired into Baghdad, but I guess now you are going to come up with how it was the americans fault that Iraqi's shot missles into their own cities to gather sympathy. Oh and just to clarify it was Kuwait city that was hit, right at a shopping mall. - Fri, 28 Mar 2003 5:04pm | ||
| war | Provider, I'm not actually saying anything. I posted an article nothing else--you seem to be the one that's all about telling me what's really happening. By the way a bark is an agressive action, suggesting that you look up the word hypocrisy is hardly "in your face" agressive behavior. Again this is all about your response to an article written by someone who is actually there, you go on to speculate about what it is I think, while at the same time accusing me of uninformed speculation--even though I haven't said anything about what's going on there--, you sure you're in the right country, call me the kettle then and order up your freedom fries--even though you profess to not like the americans. - Fri, 28 Mar 2003 6:04pm | ||
| True Canadian | Yes, it seems that "The Provider" likes pot...kettle..black... Enjoys debating until he or she can say no more. More like the provider of half truths! - Fri, 28 Mar 2003 6:30pm | ||
| The Provider User Info... | Whoa now you are being a jackass. I gave you a way out. I said "before you take it as fact". It is a figure of speech, and I did not mean to imply that you did nor did I directly say that you did, it was mainly in response to Jedi's posts immediately after you posted it that I said that. But hey, the world revolves around you right? And I said Bark because I had in no way insulted you or put you down, just clearly stating my opinion, which I clearly stated as an opinion, but you went off on how I was "sensitive" and what not. Whatever, I thought that the people who read this post should know more than that. Hey, be quick and turn on CNN, I know that alot of that show is biased to no end, but they are having this EXACT conversation with a reporter in Baghdad. The reporter was told about the bombing seconds after it happened and it was the only bombing in Baghdad where reporters were informed about it by Iraqi officials. And to top it off it was the only bombing that reporters have been allowed to go to. All of the military and intelligence hits have been banned from reporters. They are talking about how this bomb in baghdad was the most devastating attack against coalition support. But hey, you don't want to hear about that, you want to argue about the dictionary meaning of the word "bark". I guess I was wrong to think that someone on livevictoria would start a post about the war because they wanted to discuss it. Please, you have replied to me twice now, attacking me and not the points that I am trying to make. If you think it is bullshit turn on your TV. Really think about it. A reporter gets to a scene in Baghdad were the bodies are still smoldering in cars and the brains of peoples friends and loved ones are strewn about in the street. How long would you stand there and stare at your buddies brains? I doubt long enough for reporters to make it through a city under bomb fire where they are not allowed. And if you were a reporter and you showed up there, are you an expert on ballistics and thermodynamics? Are you qualifed enough to even tell the difference between a missle attack and a car bomb? If you could tell the difference, how the hell are you going to tell where that missle came from? So you hear a pile of screaming people who also have no idea where those missles came from screaming their anger towards the US and so you print the story. But I do not believe that thinking is in your repetiore, maybe a spellchecker and a dictionary..... I am not even going to bother responding to True Canadian because all americans are inbred racists according to his vast antiracist attitude. Hating a majority is still racism. And I was not pro-american because I thought this was an unjust war, but now I believe what ever the motivations behind it, the outcome will be better. And by the way, have you met this reporter? Did he hand you this story personally? You found it on the internet. You do not even know if this is written by someone who was there, or just some guy who saw it on CNN like everyone else. - Fri, 28 Mar 2003 6:50pm | ||
| True Canadian | A majority of what? On a world scale, most of the population of this earth are people of color? And you obviously enjoy missing the point! No problem with American people. Have many American friends. People that have had to leave their country because of the racism that they experienced there. However, I was speaking metaphorically. Perhaps not using the correct words (I grant you). I was speaking more of the establishment than of the people as a whole. I do apolgize for some of my words. I truly don't believe that I am a biggot. Yes, I dislike racists, perhaps even hate them (there I go again-putting my foot in it) but I was trying to make a point! Words can be hurtful to some, as was made obvious by some of the responses. I ask you again, have you ever experienced racism? - Fri, 28 Mar 2003 7:15pm | ||
| The Provider User Info... | Yes I have experienced racism. I have had the living shit kicked out of me many times because I grew up right beside a reserve. I was white and they would jump me at night time on my way home, many, many times. I do not hate natives for it but if you read the original thread alot of my friends still hold grudges towards the race as a whole because of that. It was only a small percent of them that hated us, because in the past we hated them. - Fri, 28 Mar 2003 7:26pm | ||
| PS | Can you honestly believe that the world will be a better place after this war??? It isn't bringing peoples together, it's tearing us apart! All it can do is garnish more hatred for the US. More bad will come of this then good, mark my words! - Fri, 28 Mar 2003 7:27pm | ||
| The Provider User Info... | Saddam executed his own people, thousands have died because he won't step out of power. I would rather live in a country where I knew that if I left my house I wasn't going to die. But hey, maybe you are right. Maybe it is best to hope for a murderer to keep on leading his country and executing his people. Hey, I don't have any Iraqi relatives, so lets just keep on letting them suffer. Really, it is ok that the live in poverty(I know this exists everywhere), lets just let their government keep on screwing up, and hey even if nothing ever happens to us and a few thousand more kuwaiti's and Israeli's get killed by the continuing volley of missles Saddam directs at them, lets leave it alone. You are completely right! How could I have been so stupid to think that it is wrong to fight for other people. It is wrong to stand up for people that are being terrorized. It is wrong to let children have education and food. Yup, I am going to go protest the war and hope everyone is a million times more miserable then me. Why should any other countries get the right to live in freedom? What did they do to deserve life? People get killed in wars. Buildings get blown up. War is not good, but that doesn't mean it is entirely bad. If I lived in Iraq, I would hope someone would stand up for me. If that be Bush and Blair than so be it. - Fri, 28 Mar 2003 7:30pm | ||
| True Canadian | Why do you think that was? Only because you were white? Or perhaps years of abuse, being channelled (all be it incorrectly) through violence. Unfortunately, for every action, there is an equal and oposite reaction. I am not trying to justify what was done to you. I lived in Montreal for a while as a child. This was during the 70's. On many occasions, I would be chased by grown men with baseball bats, calling me a little nigger! Think that was a little scarey for a 10 year old! I'm sure that there are lots of stories out there like that. But as I said, every action has an equal and oposite reaction. But I do believe as well that two wrongs don't make a right! Revenge is not the answer. Perhaps talking about it can change things. I am sorry and embarrased for the native people that treated you the way that they did. There is no excuse for that. I never (to this day) wished bad on those men that chased me as a child. This is the kind of thing that must stop. Payback for acts perpetrated in the past. Going to war perpetiates these ideals. Talking doesn't! - Fri, 28 Mar 2003 7:30pm | ||
| True Canadian | You take liberties sir! I never said that doing nothing was the answer. I simply said that a US led attack isn't the right answer. A unified UN would have been the way to disarm Saddam. I think that deposing him is something that we all agree upon. We are debating the method by which to acheive this goal! A unified UN would have kept the peace almost everywhere. Now we have to deal with even more hatred towards the west. That is not a good thing, is it? - Fri, 28 Mar 2003 7:54pm | ||
| war | provider, you suck, insulting, self-righteous little pin-head, babble on about what's really happening to your hearts content, doesn't change the fact you're a sheltered know-it-all little prick from victoria trying to ram your opinions down peoples throat on a local board. Good luck with that life, I'm done talking to you. - Fri, 28 Mar 2003 7:59pm | ||
| war | ps. you obviously still haven't looked up the word hypocrisy, try hypocrite. - Fri, 28 Mar 2003 8:18pm | ||
| True Canadian | Here, here! - Fri, 28 Mar 2003 8:20pm | ||
| full of shit | sounds like provider only pretends to let other people have opinions, tell it to the people man, you got your finger on the pulse of the world i'm sure. - Fri, 28 Mar 2003 8:36pm | ||
| The Provider User Info... | Well, how can I be putting down all of your opinions when not one of you has had one? Whatever dislike me all you want, insult me to your hearts content. But in no way does insulting me invalidate my opinions. I do not care what proof you have lets just hear your opinion. Do you have one? It appears not. Notice I use the word 'think' alot. It is something you should try. Everyone is so biased in their representation of what is going on, sometimes you have to put the pieces together yourself to find out what is true and what is bullshit. Sometimes you will be wrong, but at least THINK. It really is not that hard to do. Well, I guess for some people it is. - Fri, 28 Mar 2003 8:55pm | ||
| full of shit | blah, blah, blah, I'm a philosophy 100 major who's gonna keep shovelling the shit on because teacher told me that there's an argument for everything. If I actually practiced what I preached, thinking, I'd realize how I'm saying one thing and doing another. Fuck eh numb nuts, I think you taught everyone here a lesson. Take a few more courses and you can move on to the rest of the world, edumacate all us dumbasses as to what's really going on, after all I'm sure you know. It's because you do something none of us poor fucking idiots can manage to pull off, think...if only you'd been around earlier to suggest it to us. And please, please give us another lecture on thinking pencil dick, you proven yourself soooo qualified. - Sat, 29 Mar 2003 11:50am | ||
| The Provider User Info... | You still haven't giving me your own opinion, but it now seems like education matters to you. Well ok, I finished the first year philosophy courses as one of my elecetives during my first degree, I am currently 4 months away from my second and then I am off to finish my third, which I already have started. My first degree was in Computer programming/systems analyst, my second is business, and I am working on getting my law degree as my third. Not that makes me an expert on war, but working on your first year of philosiphy hardly makes you an expert on putting someone down because they have an opinion about it. If you have taking this course, please enlighten me to as the content of 100/101 because I personally believe you are full of shit. Something post-secondary schools really push is to think for your self. I bet you have less then a 3 point average dumb ass. And the not thinking comments were not aimed at everyone, just you and your unwitty coherts. - Sat, 29 Mar 2003 2:00pm | ||
| SentencedtoBurn User Info... | Frantic Minds Are Terrified Life Lies In A Grave Silent Death Rides High Above On The Wings Of Revelation Multi-Death From Chemicals Arrogance Has Won Annihilation Must Be Swift Destroy Without Destruction Gods Of The Throne Must Be Watching From Hell Awaiting The Mass Genocide Soldiers Defeated By Death From A Smell Bodies Lie Dormant No Life Rising New Souls On The Land Where They Fell Demons Not Ready To Die Nothing To See Where The Sleeping Souls Lie Chemical Warfare Artificial Fucking Peace Line Up In A Death Row Generals In Their Slow Defeat Diminish From This Hell Banished From The Dying World The Lords Of Hell Await Dogs Of War Are Helpless Prey To Immortality Gods Of The Throne Must Be Watching From Hell Awaiting The Mass Genocide Soldiers Defeated By Death From A Smell Bodies Lie Dormant No Life Rising New Souls On The Land Where They Fell Demons Not Ready To Die Nothing To See Where The Sleeping Souls Lie Chemical Warfare - Sat, 29 Mar 2003 3:13pm | ||
| Anonymous | (you forgot the rest) Liquidate The Torture Kills The Troops That Try To Fight Terminate Human Pesticide Bring Days Of Doom Mist Falls The Deadly Gas That Brings Them To Their Knees Sacrifice Steal The Soul And Send His Corpse To Hell Mummified Regions Lying in Dust Fall Victim To This Game Petrified Corpses Bathing In Rust Taken Without Being Blamed Falsified Spirits Farther They Fall Soon They Will Join Us In Hell See The Sky Burning The Gates Are Ablaze Satan Waits Eager To Merge - Sat, 29 Mar 2003 3:38pm | ||
| what it's really about | As Mark Twain once noted, prophecy is always difficult, particularly with regards to the future. However, it is a safe bet that as soon as Saddam is toppled one of the first tasks of the America-backed regime will be to restore the US dollar as the nation's oil currency. In November 2000, Iraq began selling its oil for euros, moving away from the post-World War II standard of the US dollar as the currency of international trade. Whilst seen by many at the time as a bizarre act of political defiance, it has proved beneficial for Iraq, with the euro gaining almost 25% against the dollar during 2001. It now costs around USD$1.05 to buy one Euro. Iraq's move towards the euro is indicative of a growing trend. Iran has already converted the majority of its central bank reserve funds to the euro, and has hinted at adopting the euro for all oil sales. On December 7th, 2002, the third member of the axis of evil, North Korea, officially dropped the dollar and began using euros for trade. Venezuela, not a member of the axis of evil yet, but a large oil producer nonetheless, is also considering a switch to the euro. More importantly, at its April 14th, 2002 meeting in Spain, OPEC expressed an interest in leaving the dollar in favour of the euro. If OPEC were to switch to the euro as the standard for oil transactions, it would have serious ramifications for the US economy. Oil-consuming economies would have to flush the dollars out of their central bank holdings and convert them to euros. Some economists estimate that with the market flooded, the US dollar could drop up to 40% in value. As the currency falls, there would be a monetary evacuation by foreign investors abandoning the US stock markets and dollar-denominated assets. Imported products would cost Americans a lot more, and the trade deficit would be magnified. It is foreign demand for the US dollar that funds the US federal budget deficits. Foreign investors flush with dollars typically look to US treasury securities as a means of secure investment. With a large reduction in such investment, the country could potentially go into default. Things could turn very bad, very quickly. In May 2004 an additional 10 member nations will join the European Union. At that point, the EU will represent an oil consumer 33% larger than the United States. In order to mitigate currency risks, the Europeans will increasingly pressure OPEC to trade in euros, and with the EU at that stage buying over half of OPEC oil production, such a change seems likely. This is a scenario that America cannot afford to see eventuate. The US will go to any length to fend off an attempt by OPEC to dump greenbacks as its reserve currency. Attacking Iraq and installing a client regime in Baghdad may have a preventative effect. It will certainly ensure that Iraq returns to using dollars and provide a violent example to any other nation in the region contemplating a migration to the euro. An American-backed junta in Iraq would also enable the US to smash OPEC's hold over oil prices. The US or its client regime could increase Iraqi oil production to levels well beyond OPEC quotas, driving prices down worldwide and weakening the economies of the oil producing nations, thus lessening their likelihood of abandoning the dollar. It would have the short term effect of reducing the profits of domestic oil companies, but the long term effect of securing America's economic hegemony. The frequently offered canard of the Left that this war is being fought to secure oil revenues for American oil companies may have some truth to it. However, a more plausible explanation may be that the Bush administration is waging war to protect the dollar and smash the OPEC hold over international oil prices. It's a war whose purpose is bigger than Halliburton or Exxon: it's a war being fought to maintain America's position in the world. Attending the 1992 Earth Summit in Rio, George Bush Senior told the world that, "the American way of life is not negotiable". As cruise missiles rain on Iraq, we are learning just how 'non-negotiable' that way of life really is. - Sat, 29 Mar 2003 8:34pm | ||
| True Canadian | An extremely intersting point of view! Kudos respondant, for enlightening us all! I enjoy hearing from people as educated as yourself! You learn something new every day! Thanks! - Sat, 29 Mar 2003 10:10pm | ||
| Ref | Very well said! I think my point of the US manifesto has been reiterated! Much more eliquently, I might add! Thanks! - Sat, 29 Mar 2003 10:14pm | ||
| Dr.LOAD | Well said indeed, the more you get into it, the more you realize that philosphy is not a part of this, it is infact cold hard facts that tell the story. The more I see the United States trying to spread their brand of "Freedom" around the planet, the more I fear that the world is in fact on a crash course with de-evolution. I really hope they don't decide to "liberate" us next. - Sun, 30 Mar 2003 3:41am | ||
| full of shit | philosiphy? coherts? yeah, I'm suppose to buy that you are working on your third degree, you are so full of shit. Your weak responses scream little-man syndrome. You 5'2" and ready to take over the world? - Sun, 30 Mar 2003 4:40am | ||
| MajorFreak User Info... | Yes, well done whoever posted what it's really about. As for my own comments about mr.Fisk's article, the lies being told by western mainstream corporate media has denied even the possibility that ANY collateral damage has occurred. (it's always "may have") The incredibly hopeful thing about all this horror being denied is that it took years for American reporters to start to call the Vietnam "body count" briefings as the "5 oclock follies"...Now? it's started after only a week. ========= excerpt from: http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=21&ItemID=3347 PBS also aired clips of the daily Centcom briefing in Qatar. The uniformed briefer seemed distinctly on the defensive. A Canadian reporter was shown complaining that the military never displayed videos of missiles that missed their targets or hit wrong targets and demanded to know when some would be available. Then, to my surprise, a CBS correspondent rose to complain fairly vehemently that, while "embedded" reporters were offering many tiny pictures, the "big picture" was supposed to come from Centcom; instead, he commented, all that was being offered were videos of micro-air strikes. In fact, all the Pentagon news conferences of the day managed to look both ridiculous and untrustworthy as spokesmen and women tried to pin the blame for civilian casualties from the missile-in-the-Baghdad-market on the Iraqis. In fact, it's taken less than a week for American reporters to begin to doubt Pentagon briefers (foreign reporters began in that mode) -- a passage that took years in Vietnam -- and for the briefers to begin to look like participants in the long ago Saigon press briefings that included the infamous "body counts," mockingly nicknamed by reporters "the Five O'clock Follies." In other words, a week into the war the first cracks in what may become a media "credibility gap" are already showing. As it turns out, Pentagon policies for controlling the media were quite brilliant, but also dependent on the delivery of the promised war -- a brief "cakewalk" of liberation. ================ end quote ============== I'm betting the US administration will never get a chance to replace Saddam Hussain, atm. (perhaps in the future, using real democratic/revolutionary means)...why do i believe this? Have you ever heard of Stalingrad? If not that then another context you must know of: My Lai I'm really glad to be alive today, in my prime, watching propaganda from the white house and being able to crosscheck their asses within 5 minutes on google and KNOW to a certainty they lie. Moreover, everyone else thinking like me is doing the exact same thing. Talk about democracy. heh. and here we were always told that the internet reduces one's social interaction. lol. roflmao. BTW, i'd like to thank, again, whoever posted what it's really about. (though i challenged the fact it will come about, i hope the poster will forgive my constructive criticism. pst. what took you so long. lol.) - Sun, 30 Mar 2003 5:19am | ||
| Ref | It is a well known fact that the Bush administration has a menifest destiny! They want the world to be just like them. Unfortunately, that's not possible! It's wrong to force your beliefs on others! Let me make myself clear in this, I am not against the American people, far from it. I think that for the most part they are honorable people. I am however, against the Bush administrations attempts to take over the world! It is well known that Rumsfield, Wolf?? and his cronies have been planning this for many years. The mistake was attacking the US on 09/11. Up until that point, Rice and Powell had things under control and had the ear of The President. After 9/11, they were put in the back seat and Rumsfield and the boyz took over, whispering their little manifesto into his ears. This is a documented fact. Reporters were able to take a paper that was supposed to have been written by Bush and place it over a document written by Rumsfield. They matched almost exactly word for word in some sections. Deposing Saddam is something that has to be done, however, it should have been the UN that did it, not the Americans. Why, because now there is so much more disdain for the West because of it. We are better as one then we are alone. And I agree, just waiting for the US to come an liberate us! CNN and other American media are shameless in their propoganda. Would understand if it was wholey directed at Iraq but it isn't. It's directed at their own people. Fortunately (as someone pointed out) most Americans are wise to the shameless propoganda machines. They learned that leason after the vietnam war. - Sun, 30 Mar 2003 1:41pm | ||
| smile on your brother | i'll come back and kill you all after the us have left. (we get pepper sprayed they get slaughtered) nice . thats what happened after sr.bush pulled his troops out. so what if there are financial motives .if my family , friends were tortured or killed i wouldn't give the slightest if our economy died so long as WE (and no matter where we are this has to affect all of us)did not.and if we are hurt in the efforts for our children to have a safe planet to roam where they want.is that not what we strive for?granted the north american community can't resolve the homeland problems.but if i was fucked for food or medicine there are people to help me no matter what my views are.i am by no means pro anything my views change minute to minute and when that changes i'll probably be dead or old.i feel very guilty about the loss of life here and abroad for somewhere in me is the potential for such destruction.don't turn a blind eye and not let this effect you we are all precious .for we have the ability to help not only our own species but all life on our planet.and maby others. - Sun, 30 Mar 2003 2:53pm | ||
| The Provider User Info... | You don't believe that I am working on my third degree? That is ok I can prove it. Ask any member of Gallow's End, Delicious Face, or hell, lots of bands that I am friends with and spend time with on a regular basis. They all know Milton. - Sun, 30 Mar 2003 4:08pm | ||
| Dr.LOAD | Very nice post Majorfreak and some good points too, you seem to have a very good head on your shoulders. I personally think that people are outraged by all the shots of war victims on T.V. because even though they all support the idea of invading Iraq, they don't want the horrors and reality of war to depress them. Suck it up people this is WAR, it's time to take a big old spoonful of "real life". - Sun, 30 Mar 2003 11:10pm | ||
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