bmi/ascap?

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bmi/ascap?

Message Board > General Chitchat > bmi/ascap?

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ho-hum

So when you registered with socan and they gave you the choice of affiliating with either BMI or ASCAP in the states, how did you know which to choose? Guide me, I'm lost. - Sat, 28 Dec 2002 8:03pm

W:)

ya i never sent the thing in, i had to many questions aswell.
Including at what point in my music career do i pay $75/song just to protect it from theft. when i can send a copy of my song to my self registered mail and never open the envelope.i can put a whole CD, copies of the lyrics and sheet music photograghs and even a secret apple pie recipe all fo about $10. Valid if opened in a court of law.

do i sacrafice gear money, or do i wait till there is some attention on me and my music, as in a record deal. then have the record label pay $750 to regestar the ten song CD.do i registar every song i've ever wrote $$$$$$$$$. Not sure if socan is protecting us like a big brother or a mobster. - Sun, 29 Dec 2002 12:58am

Anonymous

dude, you don't need socan to copyright. just do the whole "mail yourself your music" thing and you're set. your mailing will be dated and thus proof of authorship. No need to waste money doing what can cost you mere postal stamps - Sun, 29 Dec 2002 1:56am

Anon386

The mail yourself thing is not really going to do you much if your prize song for some reason ends up in the hands of some organization that can actually use it to make profit. There are several benefits to copyrighting work through registration including the ability to go for damages and legal fees incurred while claiming your share. As for affiliation just follow one of your favourite artists or do some digging on the net. - Sun, 29 Dec 2002 4:08am

Anon386

Oh yeah, and if you can't spend the small amount required to register your music then why would a record company think it's worth it if you don't. Like they need the hassle of some poorly run business (i.e. the cheap band) when there are others with equally commercially viable songs and live appeal. - Sun, 29 Dec 2002 4:11am

W:)

well anon386,you should point out the good reasons for registering your music for $75/song.
there must be benifits,what are they?

the registered mail thing works for anything. - Sun, 29 Dec 2002 5:22am

reality

in actual fact, the mail to yourself deal probably isn't solid against corporate lawyers who are out to roast your soul over an open flame.
register if you figure you are good enough to do so. if you suck, don't bother. no one will ever steal your material. not sure? ask the biggest asshole you know and they'll give you the straight goods.
in summary if you feel like you are worthy of a measily $75 fee to have piece of mind do it. if you want to half ass your music, run the risk of getting burned if you think you suck but some dumbass may find a way to profit from your garbage. - Sun, 29 Dec 2002 6:33am

Anonymous

in canada, you own the copyright to your work as soon as you create it, record it, whatever. dated evidence is all you need to support your ownership (ie i wrote it in 1995, so you couldn't have in 1998). socan also charges whoever picks up a registered artist/band, and throws in hidden fees for not only the band, but the interested label, and the listening public. who gets the royalty from your stuff on the radio? socan gets first dibbs. - Sun, 29 Dec 2002 10:12am

Anon386

You are right W:) , i should have posted the benefits to registering that I know about. The most significant one is with regards to legal action you can bring against someone who ripps off your song. I am no expert but there are sites and books about this. ...

Why should I register my copyrights?
[Back to Questions about Copyrights]

Although copyrights are automatically granted to the author of an original work, formal copyright registration provides a legal public record of the basic facts of a copyright, should a dispute arise.

Registration is required prior to the filing of a copyright infringement lawsuit. In other words, if someone steals your song, you must register your copyrights before you can sue the thief.

Although copyrights may be registered at any time during the life of the rights, there are some advantages to registering them as soon as possible.

For example, if registration is made within 3 months after publication of the work or prior to an infringement of the work, statutory damages and attorney's fees will be available to the copyright owner in court actions. Otherwise, only an award of actual damages and profits is available to the copyright owner.

from http://musicians.about.com/library/weekly/copyrights/blcopyrights6.htm - Sun, 29 Dec 2002 2:43pm

Anon386

From the same site:

Can't I just mail my music to myself to document my copyrights?
[Back to Questions about Copyrights]

There is a common perception within the independent music community that mailing copyrighted material to oneself provides adequate proof of ownership.

The process works like this. You put your sheet music, CDs, and other relevant materials in an envelope and mail it to yourself. Upon receiving the envelope, you store it without opening it. The logic is that the dated post mark by U.S. Post Office on the sealed envelope certifies a date sometime after you created the works. If a dispute should arise, you use this package as evidence of your ownership of the copyrights.

There are conflicting opinions within the music community regarding the validity of this tactic. In the book Creative Careers in Music (Read the review!), producer Josquin Des Pres writes:

"Because you are handling the logistics yourself...the evidence is subject to skepticism...you may have tampered with the seal or otherwise rigged the envelope to include self-serving evidence. Cheap as it is, the poor man's copyright isn't worth it. You're taking too much of a chance with your intellectual property." - Sun, 29 Dec 2002 2:59pm

W:)

sounds worth it now.
ok we are an independedt group, we have an eleven song CD coming out soon. its just money after money, we want to release it but we are still faced with, Mastering(were and how much?), duplication (1000?), copywrite (825)but i guess you just do it. - Sun, 29 Dec 2002 3:50pm

Anon386

A cheaper way to copywrite is to do the entire album. This is all small money. You need to have each band memeber cough up each month to save for this kind of stuff. - Sun, 29 Dec 2002 5:28pm

ho-hum

Registering with SOCAN is not really about copyright, it's about them collecting your royalties for you. And it's completely free. So... back to affiliates in the states? BMI or ASCAP? - Sun, 29 Dec 2002 6:31pm

W:)

so if socan collects the money, who copywrights the mysic? - Sun, 29 Dec 2002 9:33pm

Mr. Hell
User Info...

United States Library Of Congress.
The info for everything is online if you take the time to look.
And I'd go with ASCAP myself. - Sun, 29 Dec 2002 10:54pm

W:)

if you just read the post above mine, it sounds like mr. hell is looking for an ass cap, what ever that is.
hehehe - Mon, 30 Dec 2002 12:10am

Mr. Hell
User Info...

Illiterate and unfunny.
Nice!
Ass is spelled with two S's.
Good luck with your career. - Mon, 30 Dec 2002 12:27am

W:)

can't take a joke?
Note: hehehe - Mon, 30 Dec 2002 2:06am

W:)

i was sure socan charged $75/song , maybe that's the copywright fee. - Mon, 30 Dec 2002 2:09am

Mr. Hell
User Info...

Jokes are supposed to be witty and funny. Had that been a joke, I would have taken it.
Socan are great if you are putting music out for public consumption with the possibilty of royalties being paid out for airplay on the radio, in clubs, etc.
Unless you receive significant airplay, you will receive nothing.
Better safe then sorry though.
I will repeat for the slow ones, The United States Library Of Congress for copyright. - Mon, 30 Dec 2002 2:16am

ho-hum

Yeah, so basically, no one knows the difference between BMI and ASCAP? - Mon, 30 Dec 2002 3:51pm

Mr. Hell
User Info...

ASCAP is more widely used. There must be a reason for this.
I bet if you go to http://www.harmony-central.com and search around the forums you'll find something on it. Everyone I've talked to over the years who has gone through the process says go with ASCAP, but they don't have a solid reason. I notice it being used more on industry product than BMI and that's reason enough for me. - Mon, 30 Dec 2002 4:55pm

Anon386

It's all on the web...

WHAT ARE ASCAP AND BMI AND HOW DO I JOIN?

ASCAP (American Society of Composers and Performers) and BMI (Broadcast Musicians Incorporated) are performing rights organizations. When you own a copyright you have certain rights, one of which is the right to perform your music publicly. In essence, it allows you to forbid anyone else from playing your songs in public. Any time you hear a song, it is being performed publicly; whether on the radio, on television, in a bar or restaurant or even on an elevator. As a copyright owner, you can forbid them from playing your songs.

However, if you want to sell your music, you will want these places to play your music. Therefore, you would grant a license (for a fee) to all these places allowing them to play your song. Needless to say, it would be impossible for you to negotiate a license with every radio station, every nightclub, etc.. In addition, it would be difficult for you to enforce your rights by suing those places who played your music without paying a license fee.

This is where BMI and ASCAP fit in. When you join (technically you do not join BMI or ASCAP, you "affiliate") with one of these organizations, you grant them the right to negotiate licenses for your songs with all the places music is performed publicly. By affiliating with ASCAP or BMI, you grant them the right to negotiate a license on your behalf, to collect and distribute revenue and to sue and enforce your performance copyright. 95% of all commercially released music is covered by one of these two organizations.

Just as you could not negotiate a fee for each song you own, neither does BMI or ASCAP negotiate an individual fee for each song. Instead, they grant a blanket license. BMI and ASCAP go to each radio station and make a proposition: "We have the rights to millions of songs that you want to play. For a flat fee of $X, you can play all of our songs." In this way, by buying a license from BMI and ASCAP, radio stations can play 95% of all the music ever written.

Each of these performing rights organizations negotiate a separate fee for each place where music will be performed publicly. The fees vary depending on the number of songs that will be played, i.e. a bar which plays lounge music from 8 P.M. to midnight would pay less than an elevator which plays music 24 hours per day. The size of the audience also effects the amount of the fee, i.e. a large commercial radio station would pay more than a college station.

BMI and ASCAP collect enormous amounts of money through license fees. Over $638 million dollars in performance royalties were collected in 1992. First, the two groups take all the revenue and pay their expenses. Both are not-for-profit companies. Next, they divide the money up between all their members. Both ASCAP and BMI keep track of what music is played and how frequently. Radio stations must keep log books reporting every song they play. BMI and ASCAP then compile all these reports and apportion the revenue they collect among the songs which were performed publicly. In this way, a Top 40 song which is played every 2 hours will get more performance royalties than a song which is only played once a week.

In order to join BMI, call (212) 586-2000 and to join ASCAP, call (212) 621-6000. Ask for a writer application packet. Both organizations represent music publishers as well, but that is beyond the scope of this column. The fee for a writer to affiliate with ASCAP is $10 while there is no fee for writer affiliation with BMI. Finally, you can only join one organization since they both require an exclusive agreement with a songwriter. - Mon, 30 Dec 2002 5:03pm

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